User talk:Chetsford

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Can you please explain how you arrived at no consensus for the proposal to add 'activist' to the first sentence of the lead? Noting that journalist was not part of the question put, going by your numbers (disregarding what you classify as indecipherable opinions) I'd note that 16 our of 27 editors supported the addition of 'activist' which gives 59.26%. I would have thought that given the high number of participants that 59.26% for the proposal is consensus? TarnishedPath^talk 07:18, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Can you please explain how you arrived at no consensus for the proposal to add 'activist' to the first sentence of the lead?"

Certainly!

1. First, I applied WP:DETCON which directs that consensus must be determined by "... the quality of the arguments given on the various sides of an issue, as viewed through the lens of Wikipedia policy".
2. Having determined that arguments on both sides were of roughly equal quality I, next, applied WP:NHC which directs that "If the discussion shows that some people think one policy is controlling, and some another, the closer is expected to close by judging which view has the predominant number of responsible Wikipedians supporting it, not personally select which is the better policy."
3. Third, I applied existing knowledge and experience as to the meaning of the word "predominant". "Predominant" suggests more than a mere majority; the transitive verb of "predominant" is "dominate" which, in my experience and in all closes I've both made and viewed -- and just, frankly, in life in general -- is not used to describe a mere majority.
4. Fourth, I engaged in a process of axial coding to identify thematic clusters present in the comments of respondents. These I itemized in the close summary.
5. Fifth, as I am required to do in cases in which no policy-based arguments outweigh the others (see point 1), I judged which views had the "predominant number of responsible Wikipedians supporting it". I determined 56% (15 from coded opinion 1) supported the proposal, while 41% opposed it (10 from opinion 2 + 1 from opinion 3). Coded opinion 4 was non-determinative. As mentioned, three opinions were indecipherable.
6. Sixth, having determined that the process of first resort (quality of argument) had not produced a clear outcome, and the process of second resort ("predominant numbers") would have to be applied and, having determined that "predominant" means some segment larger than a mere majority, I arrived at the conclusion that 56% (a mere majority, hence, less than a predominant number) did not constitute a consensus for adoption, and 41% (a minority, hence less than a predominant number) did not constitute a consensus against adoption, ergo there was WP:NOCONSENSUS.

"I would have thought that ... 59.26% for the proposal is consensus?" Your thought in this regard is incorrect. The essay WP:PNSD accurately explains our policy on consensus by noting that "...decisions on Wikipedia are made on the basis of consensus, not on vote-counting or majority rule". Additionally, your calculation is also incorrect. Chetsford (talk) 08:20, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Chetsford for my calculation I added 15 editors who said to call Ngo an activist to the 1 editor to call him both an activist and a journalist. Those 16 editors said to call Ngo an activist which was what the RfC question was. I added the 10 editors who said to call them a journalist and not a activist to the one editor who said not to call them an activist. Those 11 editors said to not call Ngo an activist, which again is what the RfC question was. I excluded the three editor who had no decipherable opinion. That's 16 for and 11 against giving a total of 27. 16/27 x 100 = 59.26% to the nearest hundredth of a percent. If policy arguments both for and against are of approximately equal value, given the high participation, I would have thought that 59.26% for and 40.74% (11/27 * 100) against is larger than a mere majority and hence consensus. TarnishedPath^talk 08:42, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

First, for reasons too extensive to fully get into here, the either/or !voter can only logically be counted as the union of two groups, as per below, when they're !voting affirmatively as opposed to !voting negatively; to apply in the way you've suggested would also demand the "oppose" camp is set at 44% rather than 40% since the proposal negated the possibility of an alternative inclusion. Though I know this can be a source of disagreement and I'd be open to being convinced otherwise at some other place and in some other time.

∣A∪B∣=∣A∣+∣B∣−∣A∩B∣
Second, for sake of argument, were I to accept the 59% figure, I would still reject the notion that threshold represents the "predominant" perspective in the way the word "predominant" is commonly used, particularly with these small numbers (27 people).
Third, and most importantly, it's hard for me to imagine a situation in which the difference between consensus and no consensus all comes down to how we classify a single !voter, particularly with regard to the fact that - as noted by WP:PNSD - decisions are not made "on vote-counting". If "consensus" is only determinable based on the outcome of the classification or reclassification of a single !voter, that suggests there is no broad agreement among the community, the very definition of consensus. Chetsford (talk) 09:08, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Chetsford, thanks for your time. I have no particular interest in requesting a review at WP:AN. TarnishedPath^talk 09:41, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

TarnishedPath - I have no problem if you request a review and you absolutely won't offend me if you do. I think all Ngo RfC closes end up in review in the end anyway so, if you don't, someone probably will. Chetsford (talk) 18:56, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Chetsford, you did explain the rationale for this edit and I get where you are coming from. But, the result is that the remainder text is that “Wikipedia made decision X, Y, Z” but there is no reason given by Wikipedia why the decision was made. Could you consider restoring some of the rationale? Thank you. starship.paint (RUN) 10:03, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Starship.paint -- I totally agree with you. I'm probably going to be offline the rest of the weekend, though, so please feel free to revert me, or make whatever edits you think are appropriate and remedy this. Chetsford (talk) 18:54, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Viv moira (talk · contribs)
  • Draft:Georg Dehn (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

{{SAFESUBST:Void|

Hi! Thanks for the quick reviewing. Could you tell me in detail what is wrong with these sources? They are all secondary, partly academic, not self-published, etc. I did my best to make sure that this is the case. Please be aware that the occult community is so small that often there are no secondary or non-self-published sources at all, and that there is an open project on improving occult articles.

Viv moira (talk) 16:23, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Viv moira - our policy requires a subject have WP:SIGCOV in WP:RS that are WP:INDEPENDENT. Your article has nine references and I conducted a random sample of a majority of those references: (a) two book reviews of the subject's authored texts which provide no biographical information on the subject, (b) a book written by the subject of the article himself, (c) a report [Bericht über die Menschenrechtsarbeit 2010] that includes the name "Dehn" exactly one time, in a credits page, (d) a 1608 text written prior to the subject's birth and which, therefore, could not reference him.
Having determined that 0% of the 55% of the references in the article which I randomly sampled would support SIGCOV, SIGCOV would now need to be proved on the basis of the remaining 45% (four) sources which means that probably a minimum of two would have to provide some type of biographical treatment beyond mentioning him in an index.
I next, conducted a cursory inspection of title, author, and publisher of the remaining four (4) sources and determined at least a few of the unsampled sources are likely to fail the standard of RS (for example, one was authored by a self-described "magician" and I'm not clear if the writing of a "magician" is reliable for WP:BLPs given the high sensitivity we assign to this type of article).
Based on all the foregoing, I determined it is extremely unlikely this article meets our WP:N standards. Because WP:BLP requires us to apply a sensitive degree of consideration when adding information about living people, the standard of "extremely unlikely" is sufficient, in this case, to decline the article, particularly given the great number of unsourced claims contained in the draft such as his supposed political affiliation and beliefs. Chetsford (talk) 21:25, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your genuinely detailed, neutral and mostly respectful response.

With a lot more effort (going into archives etc.) I could perhaps verify the political affiliations, which I got from his own writings (e.g. this: http://www.bildplan.de/schauraum/FABRIK/GEO.HTM , but primary source so doesn't count).

But I'm not willing to put more time into this. I have tried for almost two years now to contribute this article to this platform. I can only certify that he is well-known in the occult community, and that his work is discussed in secondary sources (even academic, which I have included) much more than is common in this domain. The ritual itself is highly relevant, even central for all the modern occult orders that were influenced by Aleister Crowley (who famously failed at attempting the incomplete version of this ritual himself).

If an article about occult work is partly rejected because one of the sources refers to himself as a magician, we are not going to find a common ground here anyway.

P.S.: Just to set the record straight - it wasn't a "credits page": https://www.gfbv.de/fileadmin/redaktion/Publikationen_Dokumente/2010/Arbeitsbericht_2010.pdf Viv moira (talk) 22:17, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Just to set the record straight - it wasn't a "credits page" It was a page in which the start and end of the content of the subject was the following sentence (roughly translated, since my German isn't great): "Working with volunteer Aboriginal expert Georg Dehn, we assisted the efforts of "Nyungah Aborigines" of Western Australia to save their [something] "owl rock" (?} [something]." This is used as the supporting source for "Since the 1980s, he has been advocating for the human rights of indigenous peoples." So clearly, much of this article is either WP:OR or just made-up.

"With a lot more effort (going into archives etc.) I could perhaps verify the political affiliations" The ability to "perhaps" verify something -- albeit only if it's not inconvenient to you -- won't really cut it. WP:V is one of the core content policies of Wikipedia and, unfortunately, we don't offer waivers or exemptions for occult subjects. Based on this, I'd suggest there's really no point in you resubmitting this again. This nonsense has occupied enough of the time of our volunteer editors already and it's clear further submissions are unlikely to result in the draft being moved to mainspace. Thanks. Chetsford (talk) 22:51, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I was trying to translate this article from its Polish version, but it got declined. The original article had sufficient sources to remain on the Polish Wikipedia. Can I have assistance in finding out what other sources to add for a second revision, or could you possibly help me transfer this article to the English Wikipedia? I already translated all the text myself. KarolSnopis (talk) 12:26, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi KarolSnopis - I'm afraid I don't know Polish so I can't assist you. (My knowledge of another West Slavic language allowed me to understand just enough written Polish to identify that four of your sources were personnel rosters and couldn't realistically contribute to WP:SIGCOV. Because only two sources remained and there was no indication that this individual likely met our standards of WP:N based on the narrative in the body, I declined it.) Chetsford (talk) 02:48, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Happy adminship anniversary! Hi Chetsford! On behalf of the Birthday Committee, I'd like to wish you a very happy anniversary of your successful request for adminship. Enjoy this special day! The Herald (Benison) (talk) 04:56, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Precious

Seven years!

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:05, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hiya! Is this edit ok? On the one hand they are a COI editor and I can find some sources online alleging people being underpaid, strikes and Emmanuel College even ended up on a name and shame list for paying less than minimum wage, on the other hand the complaints don't appear to be specific to this department (and someone more sane than I am should probably write a criticism section on the main article). What do you think? Polygnotus (talk) 13:05, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Purely IMO (others might disagree on the basis of WP:WEIGHT, i.e. is a one sentence mention in a single article sufficiently significant to include) that seems fine, however, "criticism sections" are generally not preferred (see WP:CRIT which, while only an essay, is generally widely followed). Ideally content should be blended into existing sections of an article rather than creating criticism sections. Chetsford (talk) 13:25, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am also surprised by this edit, the editsummary is moved "Giulio Regeni" to "History" -- guidelines recommend against standalone "controversy" sections, which is true, but the edit removes most of the information about the situation and leaves only an irrelevant detail... sourced to Wikipedia itself? Polygnotus (talk) 13:23, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, that was an edit error by my. I meant to copy the entire section and ended up copying just the first sentence. Will fix. Chetsford (talk) 13:25, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you! Now that I'm here, another thing I was curious about was the notable people list. Because the university of Cambridge was established before dinosaurs invented barbecue sauce there must be thousands or hundreds of notable alumni. Currently a bunch of the people listed are not even famous (e.g. Nadine Chahine). Wouldn't it be better to remove those lists from the articles about Cambridge and Oxford? We can just just categorize the articles about them (like Category:Alumni of Peterhouse, Cambridge so that we don't clutter up the articles with endless lists. Polygnotus (talk) 13:40, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To the first comment, our standard for WP:N is different from being "famous". If you have, or could have, a WP entry you are "notable" which is a separate question as to whether or not you're famous. While Cambridge was established in 1219 or whatever, this specific department -- and the degrees it grants -- appears to only have been established 15 years ago so I'm not sure it will be an overwhelming volume of content.
To the second, per MOS:L, "Linking through hyperlinks is an important feature of Wikipedia. Internal links bind the project together into an interconnected whole.". The occurrence of article-ending "notable people" lists is so common that it's described in our notability guidelines. While you could remove it, doing so would be introducing a unique structure to this article that is atypical to, and out of sync with, similar articles which generally include such lists (e.g. Department of Physics, University of Oxford, Princeton University Department of Mathematics, Department of Architecture, University of Cambridge, Department of Computer Science, University of Oxford, McGill University Faculty of Medicine and Health Sciences, etc.) and would be targeting this article for a one article manual of style. Chetsford (talk) 13:57, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Don't you think its weird to have University_of_Oxford#Notable_alumni, with 7 subsections, and then also List of University of Oxford people as a navigational point for lists of more than 2,350 people? Looking at WP:SPLIT it seems like the convention is to leave only a quick summary in the main article... not 55817 characters in 4444 words in 906 sentences and 111 paragraphs. WP:SPLIT says Add a summary, usually of a couple of paragraphs and one image, of the newly created subtopic. 111 is more than a couple. So to me it looks like University_of_Oxford#Notable_alumni and University_of_Cambridge#Notable_alumni_and_academics are the exceptions, and the convention is to leave only a couple of paragraphs when splitting an article. Polygnotus (talk) 14:06, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, per SPLIT, we should probably spin Giulio Regeni off the Cambridge departmental page. I'll propose it now at the Talk section.
List of University of Oxford people is a WP:SAL and, per SPLIT, the guidelines apply "less strongly" to standalone lists. Chetsford (talk) 14:14, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That is a bit offtopic. I am talking about the excessive size of University_of_Oxford#Notable_alumni and University_of_Cambridge#Notable_alumni_and_academics. What do you think about those sections? Polygnotus (talk) 14:16, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"What do you think about those sections?" I haven't thought about them at all. Chetsford (talk) 14:21, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]