User talk:Michael Biggar

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Thank you for your contributions to Wikipedia! Kevin Rutherford (talk) 17:57, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your recent submission to Articles for Creation. Your article submission has been reviewed. However, the reviewer felt that a few things need to be fixed before it is accepted. Please view your submission to see the comments left by the reviewer. You are welcome to edit the submission to address the issues raised, and resubmit once you feel they have been resolved. (You can do this by adding the text {{subst:submit}} to the top of the article.)

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Thank you for your contributions to Wikipedia! Huon (talk) 22:07, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, Michael Biggar. You have new messages at Huon's talk page.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Huon (talk) 17:08, 22 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your recent submission to Articles for Creation. Your article submission has been reviewed. Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time. Please view your submission to see the comments left by the reviewer. You are welcome to edit the submission to address the issues raised, and resubmit once you feel they have been resolved.

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Thank you for your contributions to Wikipedia! Bmusician 06:42, 15 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've read your draft, and it still seems to have some quite serious issues. The most important one is that I still doubt whether the Stony Creek/Brant Biggar is the same as the Bath, NY Biggar. There is no source linking the two, and the Brant County history seems rather explicit in saying that the Brant Biggar did not arrive via New York. Many of the other issues I had previously mentioned are still unresolved, and at least one obviously false claim has been added. I'm not sure how you want to proceed. I could directly edit your draft and remove what I consider dubious, not supported by sources, unencyclopedic tone and so on while improving the references and adding wikilinks. Or I could just once again detail the issues I see and have you edit the draft to address them. In principle I'd say Robert Biggar's claims to notability are weak, but he might scrape by, and a well-sourced short article about him could be written - but this draft isn't it. Huon (talk) 10:44, 28 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your continuing interest and input. You are correct in saying that I am relating the Biggar(s) at Bath, N.Y. to the Biggars in Brant County, Ontario. One of Robert's children, Charles records his birth date (1797) and place of birth (Bath, N.Y.).It seems unlikely that a family would record, intentionally, erronious information. I do not see this as a false claim. Charles' monument, which I have seen (along with many of his family) is located in the small community of The Carrying Place, near Trenton, Ontario. With respect to The History of Brant I agree that there appear to be inconsistancies. First, the source (of the relevant "Biggar" section may have been family members. But, I would suggest that at the time of publication, unintentionally, mistakes of fact may have been made. After all, the Biggars living at Mount Pleasant and those living at The Carrying Place were likely a generation or two removed from their antecedents. Second, I would suggest that stating that one left Scotland for Canada does not preclude having done so "by way of" Bath, N.Y. In fact this was likely an economic opportunity, thanks to The Pulteney Associates.

For your information and addressing an earlier question, James (a younger son of Robert) did in fact marry a cousin (Jane). Robert's older brother William also left Scotland and raised his family (including Jane) in Ontario.

Firstly, the obviously false claim is the one about the 1816 land purchase from Joseph Brant. It's obviously false because Brant had died in 1807. Secondly, James Biggar was alive at the time of the Brant County history publication, and his entry in that work says: "James Biggar was born at Biggar, a town in Scotland, in 1803, and came with his father to Canada in 1806." That leaves us with several possibilities: 1. James (or his relatives; two of his brothers still lived in Brant County) got his continent of birth wrong. I doubt that. 2. In between migrating to Bath and settling in Canada, Robert Biggar returned to his ancestral home in Scotland for James' birth. That does not sound likely to me. 3. Something is wrong with the Bath sources. Since there are multiple sources indicating that a Robert Biggar was at Bath in 1797, that seems very unlikely, too. 4. The Robert Biggar who lived in Bath is not the same person as the Robert Biggar who lived in Brant County. While the similarity of names would be remarkable (I expect Biggar is a rather uncommon last name), I have yet to see a source explicitly linking the Bath Biggar to the Brant Biggar, and until I do, I'd call this the most likely scenario. I have asked Big iron, who wrote the article about James Lyons Biggar, for his sources; maybe he can shed some light on that part of the Biggar family history. Huon (talk) 17:23, 28 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

With respect to the Matter of Robert Biggar and the property subsequently obtained from Brant it must be noted that notwithstanding Brant's promise, there were other impediments to title. Subsequent to Brant's death, the Mohawk chiefs and elders "worked with" Biggar through the long and arduous colonial administrative process until title was eventually passed to Biggar in 1826 as attested to by their signiture on the petition.

I have no idea why the James Biggar reference to his having been born at Biggar, Scotland was made. Certainly it is possible that in 1803 some or all of the Biggars returned to Scotland where James could have been born only to return in 1806 to Upper Canada. Somehow, because of the ever growing family size and other hardships, I am sceptical. The Biggars had been in the Dumfries and Galloway region at least since 1614.

Please refer to my earlier comment wrt Robert Biggar's son having been born at Bath, N.Y. as inscribed on his monument. For the time, an era where birth certificates lay with the clergy and their registers (all subject to inconsistancies and other human errors), I believe this to be suitable prima facae evidence. Michael Biggar (talk) 19:46, 28 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to add that as a Wiki author of James Lyons Biggar submission, I am aware of the reference to Biggar Scotland. I believe this to be erronious. I will leave this to others and their assumptions.Michael Biggar (talk) 20:19, 28 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The property obtained from Brant who had been dead for nine years before selling it? An impressive feat of necromancy... Wikipedia content has to be verifiable. Whenever I try to verify your draft's content, I end up either blank or with inconsistencies, contradictions, and outright impossibilities. Just another example: The History of Brant County says Biggar's wife was named Amelia. On the other hand, Sharon Jaeger writes (p. 71): "Robert Biggar came to Canada from Scotland in 1806 with his wife Mary Lauder." She agrees with you on Robert's wife's name, but with the County History regarding the direct voyage from Scotland to Canada. You would need some pretty good references to untangle this mess, and I haven't seen you present much of that kind so far. I already mentioned that I couldn't find Shirley's "Family of Biggar: Genealogical Tables", on which the article still relies, in either the Library and Archives Canada or the British Library, and that while a Robert Biggar is mentioned in the official records of the centennial celebration, Bath, Steuben County, New York, that mention is not in the appendix as your reference claims it should be, nor does it say what you cite the records for. One could probably write an article on Robert based on the County History and Jaeger's book, but it would not at all look like your draft. (as an aside, why should the reference to Biggar, Scotland be wrong? Are you now saying Charles Biggar's parents did not come from Biggar, Scotland?) Huon (talk) 20:42, 28 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Once again, thank you for your comments. I do enjoy our dialogue. For clarity, on 18 February 2019 I drew your attention to the fact that "The Family of Biggar" was likely available in Scotland, not Britain as it was prepared by the Librarian in Dumfries and his papers and manuscripts are located there. Further, it was printed in Scotland.

I have already addressed your concerns (see above) with respect to the the extraordinary length of time it took for Robert to obtain clear title for his property. You have quite the way with words but there was no "necromancy" involved-only assertiveness and a desire by the Mohawk chiefs and elders to honour their agreement with Biggar which they would not have done "by putting their pen to paper" with their signatures.

I am truly sorry that you must note that my draft, and life itself appears to reveal inconsistancies. But that is the human condition. Research into peoples lives tends to be linear. There must always be some unanswered questions awaiting their future exposure.

Regarding the town of Biggar, Scotland you will note that it is located in Lanarkshire, a considerable distance from the Dumfries area and further still from Glasgow where the Pulteney initiative originated. Please note (above) that the Biggars had a long history (since the 1600's at least) in the old historic region of Galloway. Why was the town of Biggar referenced? There are many possibilities, but no clear cut probabilities. Of course, that may not be satisfactory to hear, but again that is life.

I would be pleased if you would edit the Centennial of Bath N.Y. footnote as you see appropriate.

User:Big iron pointed to some additional sources, including this one: Herbert F. Gardener: Nothing but Names, p. 505: "He was the son of Charles Biggar, whose parents emigrated from Biggar, Lanark, Scotland." On the other hand, the History of Cuyahoga County, Ohio states (under the heading HAMILTON FI8K BIGGAR; apparently the scanner's OCR software wasn't quite up to the task):

Dr. Hamilton F. Biggar was born in the village of Oakville, Upper Canada, on the 15th of March, 1839. His grandfather, Robert Biggar, was a native of Scotland, born in Dumfries, and a member of an ancient and numerous family, the Biggars of Biggarstown, Dumfries — the family being mentioned in "Scottish Queens" as "ancient and of good repute."

There is enough context to unambiguously identify that Robert Biggar as the one from Brantford. The conclusion is rather obvious: Charles Biggar's parents were from Biggar in Lanark, Robert Biggar is from Biggarstown in Dumfries. They are not related. Charles' relatives may well have had connections with the Pulteney initiative and with Bath, NY (or not), but there is nothing linking the Brantford Robert Biggar to either Charles or the Pulteney initiative.

There may even have been another Robert Biggar associated with the Pulteney initiative; according to the Scottisch Emigration Blog there were two men of that name born in Dumfries in 1773 and 1776, respectively, and that is probably in addition to the one we are interested in who married Mary Lauder in 1784. There may have been further people of the same name from the Lanark Biggars. "Robert Biggar" seems to have been a surprisingly common name.

On the other hand, the "Family of Biggar: Genealogical Tables" are " unknown at the National Library of Scotland. They are unknown at the British Library, which should contain published works from all over the United Kingdom, including Scotland. Google produces no results except our discussion here at Wikipedia. I am rapidly running out of places to look for them, and I could not even verify they exist. Even if they could be shown to exist, I don't think they can be used as a reliable source because our readers cannot verify their content when they are not publicly available.

By now I feel I've learned more about your 19th century ancestors than I know about my own, but I still haven't seen anything linking the Robert Biggar of Brantford to Bath, NY. I still haven't seen anything indicating Biggar knew Brant, and given Brant's date of death, it's very unlikely. I haven't seen anything indicating Biggar helped the wounded in the War of 1812. Without reliable sources backing up such claims, we should not be making such claims. Huon (talk) 15:35, 29 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You are suggesting that there must have been two Robert Biggars; one from Lanarkshire and one from Brantford and each with a son Charles all of whom came to Canada. Possible, but not probable.

These are very interesting sources. I haven't seen them before. My Cleveland relatives will be most interested!

By now it must be obvious that when someone is asked "where are you from?" that person must ponder all the ramifications of that question. There are many. 1.Why What is the purpose behind the question. Will the information I provide satisfy the questioner. 2. WhereWill the questioner get more meaning (for his purposes) if I mention my village or simply a known town with which he might be familiar. The degree of specificity depends on the questioner pursuing the matter until he is satisfied.

Both the Brant history and "Nothing but Names" (both printed in the early 1880's) reflect a different era and one in which we are unable to hold to our current standards. This does not mean that they do not have merit. I believe that the Cuyahoga County (Cleveland area) material is more accurate. Perhaps later in the 1880's these educated men realized that there were inconsistancies. The Family of Biggar was printed in 1912.

Another point to bear in mind. The Scots and the English distinguish themselves whenever they are able. To me, it is not a surprise that the Scots might NOT turn over anything of a "historical nature" to the English. After all, statistics (births, marriages & deaths) collection are a Scots responsibility.

I have already removed from my draft the specific reference to Brant that you have mentioned.Michael Biggar (talk) 19:46, 29 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have cited reliable sources stating that Charles Biggar's parents came from Lanark, while the Robert Biggar who settled in Brantford came from Dumfries. I have not seen any reliable sources linking Charles to Robert, and the one reference to a Robert Biggar in Bath, NY did not provide any context at all. While it may be unlikely that there were two people named Robert Biggar who named their sons Charles (although with eleven children I'm not too surprised to find a Charles among them; on the other hand I have not seen sources that the Brantford Biggar actually had a son named Charles, nor that the father of the Charles we know of was named Robert), it is impossible that there was just one Robert Biggar who was both from Lanark and from Dumfries and who arrived in Bath in 1793 and came to Canada from Scotland in 1806. Need I cite Sherlock Holmes on the impossible and the improbable?

Regarding the libraries, from our article on the British Library: An Act of Parliament in 1911 established the principle of the legal deposit, ensuring that the British Library and five other libraries in Great Britain and Ireland are entitled to receive a free copy of every item published or distributed in Britain. The National Library of Scotland is among the other five, but it can choose whether it wants a copy, unlike the British Library, which must receive a copy. But the more important question is: If I cannot find it in the libraries which should by law hold a copy, how can I find this work? If the only existing copy is in your bookshelf, it cannot serve as a source for Wikipedia. Huon (talk) 21:02, 29 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've just written a properly sourced article on Robert Biggar. You will notice that every single statement has a reliable source, and that I have provided sufficient bibliographical information to allow non-experts to identify those sources. I didn't have sources for Biggar's date of birth, and the only source for his date of marriage I know is the Mormons genealogy website; I'm not sure whether it counts as reliable. Huon (talk) 22:28, 29 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Salut,mon ami! For the time being your great effort must stand until I can find suitable and verifiable facts that can pass muster. My only regret is that this dialogue will end. I appreciate your many challenges and your search for the facts. For now, ave atque vale! You did a good job. Here's to the future.Michael Biggar (talk) 04:06, 30 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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