This is an archive of past discussions with User:SMcCandlish. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

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	The Barnstar of Diligence
	For noting that unencyclopedic detail was inserted into the Brunswick Corporation and taking prompt action, exemplifying scrutiny, precision and community service! gidonb (talk) 14:39, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

Also an opportunity to still thank for your support for the NEC Nijmegen rename! gidonb (talk) 10:10, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

Didn't even remember that one. I comment in lots and lots and lots of RM discussions. :-)  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  10:17, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

Yes, we usually look forward and there is always so much to do on WP. After identifying someone as a good candidate for a barnstar, it can be fun to see how you collaborated. For example. gidonb (talk) 10:41, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

Ah yes! I did come closer to ArbCom election, twice, than any other non-admin candidate. I still think we need at least one non-admin in ArbCom, every tranche, since when it is all admins all the time, it's a "who's watching the watchmen?" problem. But I'm unlikely to run again. Me being one of main shepherds of MoS (and thus a blockader of constant attempts to change it willy-nilly to suit people's personal writing-preference pecadillos) means there will always be a large contingent of editors angry with me, so I'm ultimately just never going to be a suitable candidate. Someone else who does entirely non-controverial work around here should run. Besides, I really don't have time for it now. In that era, I did.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  11:09, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

Well, at least you tried!!! In my 20+ years as a Wikipedian I have never submitted myself to anything, or any article I wrote, though there were times I ran into cool historical stuff during my research. Just one example. I did try all kinds of change, for example renaming the Belgian province of Luxembourg, you joined me, and we went down in flames. Since then the standards have been changed, making such a move virtually impossible. Over the years at WP, through trial and error, I have learned to put the stuff that does come your way without asking (I was always happy it did) more front and center so people write to you, at least on average, more focused on content and at a more pleasant tone. gidonb (talk) 16:07, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

A pleasant tone is rare in style matters, for reasons. Because every single editor detests at least one line item in MoS, and I get in the way of them forcing a change to suit their preferences (which would just turn into years of slow revert-warring with others who have different preferences), some subset of editors are perpetually pissed off at me. It's just how it goes.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  21:50, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

I sure see that you deal with a lot of unpleasantness on your talk page. Take a look how my talk page starts every year and see if this will work for you. I really hated all this negativety poured over me and it has become much less since I use this system. Just a friendly tip of something that works for me, for someone who deserves better! Thanks again for all that you do and until the next collaboration! gidonb (talk) 01:40, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

Which diff am I looking for?  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  02:25, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

It's not a diff. Look at your LI and give me a call sometime ;-) Take care! gidonb (talk) 02:36, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

Ah, I see: big pile of barnstars. :-) LI? LinkedIn? I don't go there very often, but will stop in.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  03:08, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

Hi, I would like to bring this problem to your attention. The behaviour of this user seems strange to me; for example you, and I trust you very much, put vecchio in italics, why then did I, who followed the same logic, according to this user get it wrong? However, I follow the indications of a very famous and renowned English dictionary, so I'm not using italics at random. JackkBrown (talk) 03:24, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

Please use the preview feature before saving. You hit me with ten "new message" notices, to just leave a two-sentence note. I've responded to the issue over at Eric's talk page.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  03:53, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

@SMcCandlish: sorry for the notifications. And what about my question? The fact that, for example, on the vecchio page, the italics is correct, and on the pages that this user has modified he claims that it's incorrect (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Eric), even though I have consulted the English language dictionaries and these foods aren't present? I really don't understand... JackkBrown (talk) 03:59, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

And now four more "new message" notices, for another short comment. Compose what you want to say. Re-read it. Save it when you are done with it. Please. I've already addressed the substantive matter at Eric's page. In short: the italics are not needed in this case, because "Parmesan cheese" or just "Parmesan" for short is an entirely assimilated term in English. Parmigiano Reggiano probably is not, though I'm not certain that would be capitalized that way in Italian; I suspect it would be parmigiano reggiano because most Latin-derived languages do not capitalize adjectives derived from proper nouns (I have not studied Italian in any depth, though). Vecchio would be italicized because that is not a term used in English, except in highly specialized material about Italian theatre. And again, "italicized" in this particular context means "marked up with {{lang|it|...}} which produces the italics and also does language encoding".  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  04:25, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

@SMcCandlish: but I'm not referring to "Parmesan", which was not in italics before, I'm referring to the fact that he deleted all the other italics (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Eric; to "pizzoccheri", "tortelloni", etc., uncommon in English language, according to "Collins Dictionary" and other dictionaries). JackkBrown (talk) 04:29, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

"Tortelloni" is also assimilated into English (or most would think so). Pizzoccheri certainly isn't. But I'm not going to get into a big dispute about this. I warned you a while back that you were likely to run into conflict with other editors if you choose to focus your attention on italicizing Italian terms in English, and here it has happened as predicted. And you're still re-rediting and re-re-editing every comment you make on a talk page. I edit-conflicted with you twice trying to respond, and nothing you've added to your original post was necessary in the first place. Please stop doing that. It's one thing if you need to correct an error, but you seem to have great difficulty for some reason in just making your point and posting it, instead of making one third of your point, then posting that partial thought immediately for no reason, only to make another partial point a moment later, then another partial point another moment later, and so on. It's quite frustrating.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  04:39, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

@SMcCandlish: "tortellini" is assimilated in the English language, but not "tortelloni". JackkBrown (talk) 04:41, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

In any case, he didn't delete my edits because he thought these terms were common, he claimed that "We don't italicize the term that is the subject of the article throughout the article", absolutely NONSENSE (User talk:Eric#Problem), he also deleted the italics that had already been there for some time (on "pecorino romano"); I repeat, he did this for his own interests, not for a question of known or unknown, he didn't speak of this. In any case, yes, it's difficult for me to express my ideas, because I'm not listened to (by you yes, but by others almost never). JackkBrown (talk) 04:47, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

And now seven more "you have a message" notices from you. What is the problem here? Why can you not just compose a message, think about it for a moment and re-read it a couple of times, edit it as needed, THEN post it, and leave it alone? Both "tortellini" and "tortelloni" are common enough in English. "We don't italicize the term that is the subject of the article throughout the article" is obviously not correct for terms that are foreignisms in English. But what he might have been meaning to say is something like "This term has not been italicized throughout the article, so it should not have been italicized by you in this particular spot." I'm not really sure, and do not have a lot of incentive to get involved in this dispute over trivia.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  05:26, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

@SMcCandlish: that's fine, but it's very bad that every little mistake I make (I make very few and correct them if I can) is made out to be a huge thing, and that instead really problematic users like him are left alone. There's no unequal treatment, I'm fed up. I have given so much, too much, to this encyclopaedia, and in return I have only received criticism, some of it constructive. Good night and excuse me. JackkBrown (talk) 05:48, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

This may not be a good hobby for you if a disagreement about italics or capitalization makes you think someone else is "really problematic". We do not need to have a battleground about such matters.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  06:04, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

@Martinevans123, Necrothesp, Julietdeltalima, and MapReader:: It's unlikely that the short forms (or at least the semi-short one) constitute "an Americanism omitting vital words". There is likely dialectal variation on this even within the UK itself. There's a whole book about the subject of "She gave him a book" versus "She gave a book to him" construction variety across British English itself:
Gerwin, Johanna (2014). Ditransitives in British English Dialects. Topics in English Linguistics ser., no. 50.3. De Gruyter Mouton. ISBN 9783110352146.
Probably something to get at a library (perhaps through inter-library loan) unless you have access to such material via some kind of institutional account. It's one of those stupid-expensive academic volumes, at US$138. My own n-grams showed broad usage distribution when it came to the age phrasing. The thread's now archived at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 227#Aged etc, but in summary: it's probably good that we did not get toward instituting some "rule" about this, based on anecdotal speculation about what sounds best to any of us. Best left to editorial discretion at a particular article (even a particular sentence, e.g. one might have an early sentence use the long form and a later sentence use one of the shorter ones to avoid unnecessary repetitive verbiage).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  03:08, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

I think you nailed it early on, with your bracketed comment “each of them works better in different sentence structures”. There may well be national differences in which formulations ‘feel’ more natural in different contexts, but if we were able to nail them down precisely at WP, we ourselves would be writing books for $138 a time. MapReader (talk) 05:21, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

I actually started writing a Style Guide for English with a Global Audience in the 21st Century (among other working titles), and years later it's only fractionally done (60,000 words). Writing a serious book takes tremendous discipline and focus (which would mean largely abandoning WP for a long period of time) to do all the research and then actually synthesize it into something useful. I do have co-authorship of one book under my belt, but honestly it was mostly assembled by the other author, from material I'd already written in the course my "day job". Writing comprehensive non-fiction from scratch is really challenging. I'll probably finish one on the history and politics of tartans and Highland dress before I finish the style book.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  15:16, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Greetings, SMcCandlish! Hey, here's a title caps question for you. Shouldn't "Sitting on Top of the World" actually be "Sitting On Top of the World", with the word "on " capitalized? I was sorta thinking it should, because MOS:TITLECAPS says to capitalize "the first word in a compound preposition (e.g. Time Out of Mind)". I'm not sure though, so, what do you think? — Mudwater ^(Talk) 15:56, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

P.S. The reason I'm asking is that I'm planning on creating an article about Sitting On Top of the Blues, an album by Bobby Rush, and I want to use the appropriate capitalization for that. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 19:54, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

@Mudwater: It's on, since this is a prepositional phrase with a noun referent (on + top) which in turn is modifying another prepositional phrase with another noun-phrase referent (of + the world/blues). It's not a compound preposition like out of (a chaining of two prepositions into a new meaning; sometimes these completely fuse, as in upon, onto, into, within, without, and the Northern British equivalent of the latter, outwith, picked up from the Scots language, plus some vernacular spoken English novelties like outta; others do not fuse, e.g. "out in[to]", "from around", etc., as in "going out in[to] the world", "reaching from around the side"). Rather, "on top of" (a contraction of on the top of) has top which is a locational noun, not a preposition. That is, it's an obscured prepositional phrase with a noun object, not a compound preposition. There are lots of these (some more common in one dialect than another): "going out back", "moving up front", "coming from behind" (with "behind" in its locational noun sense, not the prepositional use in a phrase like "stand behind the line"). This particular "on top of" case is confusing because it's become a stock phrase, and may be on the way to evolving into a compound preposition (some fused examples of that process would be inside, outside, alongside, contractions from longer Middle English phrases that used side as a noun). One could say "going out back on Sunday", "moving up front in time with the others", "coming from behind out of nowhere", etc., and similarly juxtapose two prepositional phrases with the first modifying the second, as in sitting on top of the world, but they don't form customary collocations like "on top of". There are a few other such collocations, like "in front of", "at/in the front/rear/back/side of", but treated as any other prepositional construction in a title: "Go to the Back of the Line", "Alone in Front of the Jury". (In a few hundred years, may have a fused novel preposition, infronta.)

So anyway, "Sitting on Top of the World" and Sitting on Top of the Blues are what to use. Broad advice that serves well on virtually all style questions: If there's any doubt, presume it's poorly founded and just follow the most applicable general MoS rule, as a default. (If you think some codified exception to it might apply but are not sure, presume it does not.) If you skirt the rule based on subjective doubt, it invites unnecessary dispute which would likely not arise otherwise. Put another way, if you can imagine some doubt, leave it to someone else with a bee in their bonnet about it to make the case that the doubt is well-founded and that an exception applies or should be made. Don't do the work for them (you'll find it thankless, since such propositions always meet with objection from others).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  14:24, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Excellent, that's great stuff! Thanks! — Mudwater ^(Talk) 01:45, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

The redirect Template:R from project has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Anyone, including you, is welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 February 20 § Template:R from project until a consensus is reached. ‍—‍a smart kitten_[meow] 00:16, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Template:Blockquote paragraphs has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the entry on the Templates for discussion page. Gonnym (talk) 12:40, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

story · music · places

Thank you for improving quality articles in February. - The image, taken on a cemetery last year after the funeral of a distant but dear family member, commemorates today, with thanks for their achievements, four subjects mentioned on the Main page and Vami_IV, a friend here. Listen to music by Tchaikovsky (an article where one of the four is pictured), sung by today's subject (whose performance on stage I enjoyed two days ago). -- Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:37, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

more music and flowers on Rossini's rare birthday --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:14, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

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Seriously? You're going to start an AN thread and make an evidence-free bad-faith accusation, all because you're not getting your way at an essay about the disruptiveness of style-warrior behavior? Really? Every heard of using the talk page?  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  21:39, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

They're at least one size too big for you. Tony (talk) 03:20, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

I like 'em big and nerdy. The frames mostly keep out of my vision.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  03:26, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Reason endorsed. Tony (talk) 04:05, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Especially important with an ultra-wide monitor! Mine visually fits more or less perfectly within my peripherally visible frames.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  12:29, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Yer talkin' to someone who did a PhD in perhiperal vision. :-) Tony (talk) 23:00, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Ah so! I especially like this pair for the movies, too; I can get the whole screen in without having to move to the back rows.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  02:59, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Hi, SMcCandlish. Thanks for your previous help with adjusting inaccurate terminology on the Dahua Technology page. In an effort to update the article, I put up a new request on the Talk page and thought you may want to have a look. Happy to hear your thoughts. Thanks, Caitlyn23 (talk) 20:10, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Hi, I just wanted to check in again in case you may have missed my message. If you have time to take a look at my recent edit request on the Dahua Technology Talk page, I would greatly appreciate it. Thank you, Caitlyn23 (talk) 16:22, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a report involving you at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement regarding a possible violation of an Arbitration Committee decision. The thread is SMcCandlish. Thank you. Sideswipe9th (talk) 04:07, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

I know we haven't always seen eye to eye on certain items, but you're easily one of the most knowledgeable editors out there about MOS matters and I respect your point-of-view. My question is about linking from infoboxes. Over the past couple of years, infoboxes have been gradually added to several featured biography articles. Many of these articles have links to list of works or awards for quick reference for example, Alec Guinness has a link to works. Does this practice violate the MOS? Is this spelled out anywhere? Should it be? Thanks for any feedback you can provide! Nemov (talk) 16:39, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

@Nemov: FWIW, I don't recall not seeing eye-to-eye with you; I make a habit of ignoring and forgetting usernames to the extent I can so that I stay focused on content instead of personalities. :-)

As to the question: Is this only about links that go out to another article like Alec Guinness on stage and screen, or ones that link in-article to a section below? I think with regard to the Guinness case (and similar stuff is very often done at band and album and single articles, to link to discographies, to previous/next album in chronological sequence, to album from song, etc.; and there are many other such cases), this is basically an integration of navbox features into the infobox, to avoid having a separate right-hand navbox sidebar. In many cases, it's going to be technically redundant with a page-bottom navbox, but there seems to be widespread community tolerance of providing multiple forms of navigation to account for the different ways various individual readers respond to information-architectural features. E.g. navboxes themselves are technically reundant to categories and vice-versa. This is covered in a general way at WP:CLNT.

I just searched that page for the word "infobox" and it does not appear. I searched MOS:INFOBOX for "nav", and the relevant material there is this: "As with navigation templates, the purpose of the infobox is for its utility, not appearance; therefore, infoboxes should not be arbitrarily decorative. ... Like navigation templates, infoboxes should avoid flag icons. For more information about flag icons, see MOS:FLAG. ... Other types of templates: Wikipedia:Navigation templates – article footers designed to provide links to several related articles". That's it. Nothing relevant for a "nav" search at WP:WikiProject Infoboxes. Template:Infobox provides an example of merging an infobox into {{Sidebar}} as a sub-box (and the implication is that it works the other way around, too, since {{Infobox}} and more specific infoboxes based on that meta-template also support the sub-box functionality).

There seems to be no pro or con guideline material (unless it's in some other page) that pertains to having navigational features in infoboxes (either as line-items like in the Guinness case, or as sub-boxes). Per the lead material at MOS:INFOBOX, an infobox primarily serves as a nutshell that "summarizes key features of the page's subject" ("features" is rather poor wording; I'm going to go change that to "facts" or "details") and "show[s] information relevant to the article subject"; "relevant" at least in theory could include some navigational material to closely related articles (I'm more skeptical regarding links to sections within the same article). There appears to be broad acceptance, so far, of navigational features also being present in infoboxes, at least in certain types of infoboxes and in certain forms, but it's not clear whether this is actually a best practice. So, something to perhaps raise as a question at WT:MOSINFOBOX. History that occurs to me is that WP's infoboxes actually originated as a form of navigation, and were first implemented at articles that were part of a series on related subjects. They were only later generalized to other sorts of articles because their features were thought useful. Given the level of discord that arises about infoboxes, I'm hesitant to say more, ha ha.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  19:41, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. Yes, this is in regards to linking to a separate related article like Alec Guinness on stage and screen. I don't think it makes sense if the link goes to a section of the article. Nemov (talk) 20:11, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

Hope it helps one way or another. I know it's not a simple answer, but at least WT:MOSINFOBOX is clear as the venue for where to seek clarification, propose some advice/limits/practices, etc.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  00:23, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

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